Mundie Moms

Thursday, October 20, 2011

Clockwork Angel Read Along Day 9: Chapter 8 Camille

It's day 9 of our Clockwork Angel Read Along! Please be sure to visit our link here for our schedule, guidelines and to fill out the form to be entered to win some fabulous prizes. Feel free to answer any number of the questions asked. You don't need to answer all of them if you don't wish to.

Today we're discussing chapter 8. We learn a lot in this chapter. Per Camille, we learn de Quincy is an ally to the Shadowhunters with a very dark secret. Honestly the more we read about him the more I despise him. There's something really off about his character. We also learn that Nate knew about the shadow hunter long before he met Mortmain. Charlotte also reveals to Tessa what happened to Sophie.

* We've now met Camille who's revealed a great deal about de Quincy and Tessa's brother Nate. Do you think Camille is someone they can trust? Now that we know Nate knew about the shadow hunter world before coming to London, what are your thoughts about him now and what would motivate him to become apart of de Quincy's world?

* I've come to realize that the Shadowhunters in CA have the same thought process of those in the TMI series, were they come across as thinking they're more superior than those who aren't of their race. They also appear to be viewed the same way, meaning not every Downworlder respects them. Do you think that is something that's passed down from generation to generation or is it just something they all naturally think?

* We learn through Charlotte that Sophie has a rare gift, known as "the sight" and she can see things that others can't. Charlotte also tells Tess about what happened to her before she found her. Do you think there's more to Will and Jem than meets the eye, that Sophie can see? She seems found of Jem, but despises Will and I can't help but wonder if she can see them for who they really are.


  1. I wasn't sure if Camille was someone the Shadowhunters could have trusted until she told Will and Jem her reasons for giving them information. Having Magnus help them also made me think that they could trust her. I always thought that maybe Nate wasn't as good as Tessa made him out to be. I also thought his gambling problem was part of the reason he became a part of de Quincey' world.

    I think that the Shadowhunters superior attitude is something that's passed down from generation to generation.

    I think Will's behavior is just an act to hide whatever secret he has and keep everyone at a distance. Maybe Sophie can tell he's not being genuine and that's why she despises him.

  2. I think they may be able to trust camille. I wouldn't say it's going to be easy trusting a vampire, but i think with here motive she wouldn't betray the shadow hunters.

    I think it's something instilled in the shadow hunters i believe shadow hunters are taught to be weary around downworlders and maybe rightly so. As some downworlders can't be trusted, ie de quincey

    i think sophie's despise for will comes from a fear of her last employer's son. He reminds her of that boy that cut her face.

  3. Nakoya- Great comment about Will. I never even thought that maybe Sophie can see his act. Which I really think how Will is, is truly an act.

  4. My opinion of Camille was influenced by the Camille I met in CoLS, so I knew more about her history. I never got the sense that she was pure evil, like I did with DeQuincey.

    Shadowhunters are like fighter pilots - yes, they are arrogant, but in order to do what they do, they must be 100% confident that they are the best. That arrogance is necessary when making split second decisions that mean life or death. That being said, I think the distrust and,let's be honest, bigotry that exists in Shadowhunter culture towards downworlders is a part of their culture. I think it's interesting that in this series, the rules are more strict, just as Victorian society was more strict. I TMI, things are not 100% rosie, but with more tolerance in the mundane world, there is more tolerance between Shadowhunters and downworlders. Maybe that's over analyzing it, but it was something I noticed.

  5. I think with every downworlder you have to be careful how much you trust them. Shadowhunters need to be weary of their opponents at all times to include informants. Camille is helping but she will never be 100% trustworthy. As far as Nate is concerned. I still have the feeling that he is not as innocent as Tessa assume. Nate might have a similar gift as Tessa and it got him in with the wrong crowd at The Pandemonium Club.

    Shadowhunter definitely have a superiority complex. I think it is one that is inherited. Probably comes from the fact that they are Nephilium (angel blood). People of power always look down on the little folk so it would be no different for Shadowhunters. It is typical hierarchy of society in paranormal form.

    Maybe Sophie can see through Will. Maybe she can see his insecurities, his weaknesses, but if that were the case that should make him more likable to her and it is apparent she despises him. Remains to be seen why.

  6. Camille is an enigma, but I think they can trust her, she told the real reason why she wants to help them, so why not? Nate is another enigma, first we thought that he was in some kind of prison like Tessa, and now we know that he's going to the parties and he even knew about the downworld before he met Mortmain? o.O

    Shadowhunters are very proud of what they are (besides Jessie), so I think is something that comes from the past.

    I have a feeling that Sophie's 'sight' is a little bit more special than what we think.

  7. I think Camille is trustworthy. Maybe becuase I know her a little from TMI or maybe it's just becuase of her motive. She has no reason to betray them. When it comes to Nate though... maybe he wants to become a vampire. They're usually rich after a while and money seems to be the only thing he actually cares about ._.

    And the superior thinking is probably how they are raised. Maybe it's also how the get ot feel after killing a few demons but I think it's mostly passed down.

    She sees what many peopl does not see. Maybe she can see auras or just the soul and can see how false Will is, cuase I think he never really shows who he really is. And she also sees how true and genuin Jem really is. His lies about whatever is wrong with him I don't think is to protect himself, at least not in a selfish way. Will on the otherhand... well.. I guess we'll see

  8. I can't stand Nate, from the moment we meet him

  9. *I think that Camille is someone they can trust. She didn't need to go to them at all, so the fact that she did makes me think she is at least somewhat trustworthy.

    *I think that their superior thinking is just how they are brought up to be. They are proud to be what they are.

    *I think that Sophie doesn't like Will because he is arrogant and he seems so much like the boy who hurt her the way he thinks he is so great looking and every girl should fall at his feet. I think there may be a little more to it too. Maybe she knows a bit more about him.

  10. I'm trusting Camille...for now. Her intentions (although they seem personal) seem pretty genuine. We shall have to see though!

    I definitely think that the way the Shadowhunters think is how they were raised. I don't think it's something that is inherently in them, but definitely how they were brought up.

    I also agree that Sophie can see through Will's act. What that act is covering up we don't know, but maybe Sophie does. Or she can just tell that it's an act and doesn't like that. Plus, I'm sure Will reminds her of the boy that cut her face.

  11. I wouldn't say trust Camille but I would listen to what she has to say and figure out if she is right or not. As for Nate I don't really like him. He seems like trouble and I'm sure what got him involved with De Quincy has to do his money problems/gambling.

    I think all shadowhunters are taught the same but it does depend on their families. If the parents were around Downworld and liked them, the kids would pick up on it. But I also think there is pressure to not like Downworlders because so many shadowhunters think they are better than them and you don't want to seem different. So yes this is something passed down but can also be learned by yourself.

    There is more to everyone than meets the eye and Will and Jem are no exceptions. They both are secretive but just go about it in different ways. I'm sure Sophie can see them for who they really are but probally won't like Will no matter what she sees because of what happened to her before. Jem is different because he is much kinder but he still keeps a lot to himself.

  12. I was beginning to suspect that something was amiss with Nate, which was obviously at odds with Tessa's inviolable belief in him. However, I'm afraid to say that I didn't really allow myself to suspect much; I was too confused with everything else going in and too engrossed in the story.
    I am pleased that the second cycle of TMI begins to address the prejudice and innate superiority the Shadowhunters seem brought up with, which also seems to be an inherent characteristic in their angel blood, despite the fact that they are the ones who are essentially 'serving' everyone else. This discrimination against Downworlders and Mundanes has been bothering me ever since I read Clockwork Angel, and I think what Tessa said to Will about hating them so much is very pertinent. Even people like Jem admit to feeling a supercilous attitude to others not of their ilk and being generally unwelcoming and hostile to outsiders. I have a feeling that, as Tessa becomes more aware of her isolation in the Shadow world by the fact that she is a Downworlder; and not even one that can be classified into the traditional groups, at that -- there will be some confrontation with her and the Shadowhunters.
    As for Sophie, I believe I once read a good theory about her relationship with Will: that her sight enables her to 'see' into Will, and his darker side and ultimately, his secret. In this way, Sophie's 'sight' could be interpreted as a heightened sense of judging character and intuition.

  13. I don't think Camille should be trusted. Even though she gave the shadowhunters information, theres something about her that just screams unreliable.

    Although Sophie has the sight, I think there's more to why she sees Will for what he is.

  14. I think Camille is in this for herself but could help the Shadowhunters at the same time. They should be careful with the info she gives out.

    Sophie probably sees Will as being similar to the guy who cut her face; cocky and sure of his charms. She alluded to this in an earlier chapter.

  15. Camille is helping only to get what she wants...will only be ally as long as there are benefits for herself. Nate is cast in an upleasant light...he's motives are questionable at best....

    The shadowhunters are raised that way..they are a bit isolated from look down on mudanes and downworlders

    I am curious to see what Sophie knows or "sees"..she may know something Will has done or is going to do...hope she is wrong...Will can't be bad...


  16. I think Sophie just has normal 'sight' as in that she can see the shadow world. When it comes to Will and Jem I think she just favours Jem for the obvious reasons, he is sweet, gentle and kind. Everything that her previous employers son was not.
    In Will's case I think that Sophie is just very wary of him, not just because of similiar personality traits with the other boy, but Will is just a hazard to be around! He takes no thought in what he says or does—or he likes to make you think so—and due to this he's unpredictable. And for someone as flamboyant and charming as Will, being surprising isn't exactly a good thing.
    I don't think she dislikes Will because she sees some 'inner darkness' or anything though, because I dint think Will has any if that.
    I think he has a past that haunts him to the point that he has twisted his entire personality to form this block of sorts, keeping his past locked and people out. Even Jem who he is close to, I doubt he knows much if any of Will's secrets. Not silly things or his family background, I mean like the real hauntings of his mind.
    Otherwise it wouldn't be that big a deal for Tessa to find out, which I'm guessing she will at some stage in the series. I mean if Jem knew and then Tessa knew, I just think that's a bit dull. There's not as much WOW, or shock effect as there would be to just one character finding out the truth.
    Personally I think Sophie's judgement comes down to this: Will reminds her of a terrible young man who ruined her life as she knew it. She is cautious of him because she cannot read him, keeps him at a distance by being rude. Warns Tessa of him because anyone with eyes can see she's infatuated, and Sophie thinks he's bad news.
    Jem is the opposite in every way and for someone who has had such a rough time, some gentle healing words would make all the difference. He's steady and reliable, she can trust his presence.
    But, that's just my view (:

  17. I think there's more to Camille than meets the eye and she might be a good ally for Tessa in the future.

    I think the Shadowhunters are narrow sighted but that is only because that is all they have known and learned. If you are born to think something, it can be very hard to go against your beliefs and Shadowhunters believe that Downworlders are inferior so I don't think it is necessarily either groups' faults so much as history's fault.

    I think Sophie might know something about Will and while she clearly doesn't like what she knows about him, maybe she was misunderstanding something.

  18. I think that this kind of superior thought is actually passed from generation to generation, since there are shadowhunters that don't have this kind of thought/behavior, so it doesn't seem to be natural of them.

    For me, Sophie can see everyone for who they really are, because she knows who the shadowhunters are and, being full human but with the sight, she understands how they all feel superior and manages to see through this, so she realizes what's their personalities like.

  19. I think Camille can be trusted, especially after she told Will and Jem why she does not like De Quincey.
    Shadowhunters have to have an attitude and feel somewhat more important since they have an important job protecting mundanes. And the friction between shadowhunters and the downworlders is going to take some time to see each other as allies.
    As for the last question about Sophie. Sophie caught Charlotte's attention because Sophie was able to see Charlotte even though she was glamoured. Charlotte said that Sophie has a touch of the Sight, as do Thomas and Agatha. Mundanes with this gift is rare. So I do not think that Sophie sees anything more than Thomas and Agatha. She sees that Will has an attitude and he obviously is not honest in everything he says. Sophie dislikes him because he is rude and arrogant like her old employer's son. Charlotte went on about Sophie's gift to Tessa to help Tessa see that she is special also. That's just how I understood it.

  20. I think the Downworlders are naturally fearful of Shadowhunters, and that translates into them not trusting the Shadowhunters, and they pass that fear on through the generations. Because Sophie is a maid, that means she ends up in the background a lot, and is able to pick up what most people miss. I think she sees a little bit more of Jem and Will's relationship, but I don't think she really sees it for what it is.

  21. I think the Shadowhunters think they're more superior than those who aren't of their race is something that's passed down from generation to generation. I think they learn from watching their elders act around others.

  22. * I'm not sure what to think of Camille yet. Whatever she is doing, it is for her own benefit. But that does not mean she will be a villain.
    * I do agree that Shadowhunters learn from generation to generation. Who wouldn't feel superior if they descended from angels and had all these superpowers ;).
    * I think Sophie sight has more to do with seeing the supernatural world around her. I think the only reason she dislikes Will is that he reminds her of her previous employers son.

  23. *Is it weird that I actually kind of like Camille. Well I do, she is interesting. I think Nate probably knows something about Tessas real identity.

    *Definitely Generation to generation. I mean would anyone really be racist if no one taught them how?

    *Perhaps. I however still think WIll did something to Sophie. Either that or someone like Will did something to her. Or she just thinks Will is a pretentious D-bag

  24. I trust Camille, in fact I really like her character. I don't personally agree with revenge in real life but in fiction is definitely something I like to read, especially when it is about love. Go Camille!

    About the shadowhunters and their superiority I think it's because the way they are raised and their beliefs. They have a great responsibility they can't only exist, they have a mission.

    Sophie is especial, I am sure.

  25. Camille is an interesting vampire. I think they can trust her, because her motivations for helping the shadow hunters seems legitimate. Of course, she nas lived a long time and has probably picked up many useful skills in getting what she wans, so the shadow hunters should still have some reservations as to trusting her. Nate knowing about the shadow hunter world before he met mortmain just makes him seem suspicious. It's too big of a deal that Nate knew about the shadow hunter world and then went to work for mortmain also knows about the shadow hunters. And then Nate being associated with de Quincy is odd. His little gambling problem that Tessa tells us about may be one of the reasons why he is interested in de Quincy. Maybe there was some gambling games going on in de Quincy's mansion of something.

    I think it's the way they are raised up and just their basic way of life that makes the shadow hunters think theyre more superior or what not. I mean, they have to go through a lot of vigorous training throughout their whole life to help protect the world from demons, so I guess it would be natural to feel more superior to them because they protect them.I think clary thinks about this topic in one of the tmi books - that maybe they feel like that because they have to 'keep their eye on the bigger picture' and because they have such a big responsibility, there's no doubt they would feel more superior.

    Hmm that's an interesting thought. But the way that Charlotte describes it, the sight just sounds like how some mortals in the Percy Jackson series can see through the mist and see the monsters. So like other people have commented, that she doesn't see through will and jem's personality, she can just see through the shadow hunter's glamors and whatever. Otherwise wouldn't agatha and Thomas be able to do that? So no, I just think that Sophie just dislikes will, and she is just an extraordinary girl who has the sight. :)

  26. I believe that the shadowhunters think they are better then mundanes b/c it was passed down by generation. But then again, they have super human strength and speed and a whole bunch of other powers, so naturally they are going to think they are better!

    I feel Will is the way he is b/c he is hiding something and does not want people to get close to him. Jem seems very open and doesn't hide too much. Sophie must like people who are real, and she hates Will b/c he can be such a douchbag most of the time, but I don't think she thinks he is hiding anything. She just doesn't think he is a good person.

  27. I trust Camille at this point. She knows that DeQuincy is powerful and controls the other vampires in London. She wouldn't go against him if she wasn't sure that the Shadowhunters would find something against him at the party.
    Tessa described Nate as a dreamer,so I'm not surprised that he got involved with the Pandemonium Club.

    Sophie has the gift of seeing through glamour, but I don't think that Will and Jem's secrets are related to glamour. Will has bragged about messing around with other girls, so I think he just did something to get on her bad side.

  28. - I do think Camille is someone they can trust, at least for now, the first time I read it I felt the complete opposite of this. I think Nate's involvement with De Quincey and Pandemonium Club might be related with his gambling problems, and not exactly the gambling part but why he was addicted to it, he was probably looking for power, easy money, wealth, something to make him distracted...

    - I think it may be something that's passed from generation through generation, it's already in their culture. Also, they have power and their kind has made the rules of the Shadow World, I think that's plays a big factor in making them feel superior.

    - I don't know, I never thought of it that way. I just thought she could see through glamour and into the Shadow World and that was it.

  29. Camille makes it obvious that her end game is revenge on other vampires that killed her lover in the past, but especially De Quincy. People who tend to have personal vendettas and use other people as a means to an end, I find, typically can't be trusted nor depended upon. We'll just have to wait and see what happens with her later.

    Also, she mentioned Magnus Bane for the first time, that's super exciting and can't wait to see his shiny sparkly self in this book finally!

  30. I think that all of the Shadowhunters think that they're better because of upbringing, and also because they're descended from angels. Obviously that gives them an ego boost.

  31. I think Camille can be trusted for the fact that she has been an informant of the Shadowhunter for quite some time. I think she has proven to be trusted just by passing informations on the downworld.

    I think it is normal that Shadowhunters feels superior of the downworlders just because they were created by the Angel and some downworlders are just of by a disease.

    I think it is normal to Sophie to analyze both Will and Jem, I think she sees both Will and Jem as the opposite of each other thus making Jem stand out and despising Will.

  32. Camille gives me that bad feeling you feel when your upside down on a roller coaster. I love her as a character, but her iciness (pun sooo intended) prevents me from trusting her.

    This would be my only problem with the shadowhunters! I love them to death, but they can be so snooty without even realizing it sometimes. I think it's just handed down through generations, and they've never thought twice about it because it's the only way they know.

    I have a feeling Sophie is going to be a key character sooner or later-meaning I think that not only does she have special abilities, but she has that knack for observing people and seeing through their facade.